What AI Search Means for Lawyers | The Scalable Law Blueprint Ep. 8

What happens when buying legal leads stops working? And how should plaintiff law firms adapt as AI search, new regulations, and rising ad costs reshape the landscape?

In this episode of The Scalable Law Blueprint, host Julien Emery sits down with Jordan Banafsheha, Founder and CEO of Icepop, to break down what SB 37 means for California law firms, why relying on referral networks can quietly cap your growth, and how AI driven search is about to transform legal marketing. If you care about law firm growth, legal automation, and building a future ready plaintiff firm, this conversation is essential.

Jordan shares hard earned insights from working with high growth law firms across California and explains why diversification, brand building, and operational alignment are now non negotiables for scaling sustainably.

Connect with Jordan Banafsheha:
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KEY TAKEAWAYS

• SB 37 is already reshaping legal advertising in California with stricter disclosure rules for law firms and referral businesses
• Referral networks must now disclose they are not law firms and display bar certifications, which may impact conversion rates
• Relying on one lead source creates long term vulnerability and reduces brand leverage
• Large firms spending millions often receive preferential lead quality from referral networks
• Diversifying marketing channels from day one compounds brand awareness over time
• Scaling ad spend requires new creative, new landing pages, and demographic expansion, not just a bigger budget
• Creative now drives performance, advertising is largely about content quality and testing
• Law firms must scale intake operations in parallel with lead volume to protect conversion rates
• AI generated creative can lower production costs but must comply with new disclosure rules
• AI search platforms will introduce both organic and paid visibility opportunities, similar to the evolution of Google

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⚖️ About the show:
The Scalable Law Blueprint explores how modern plaintiff firms streamline operations, scale capacity and deliver five-star client experiences using automation, AI and smarter systems.
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I've been reliant on a couple of firms to sell me these, and now without them, I have no business. I don't have a brand. I'm really at the mercy of them. That is Jordan Benioff Shia, the founder and CEO of Ice Pop, a digital marketing firm, helping businesses build the full marketing engine. From awareness to conversion to retention. There are really big law firms that will spend millions of dollars with these referral businesses, and they will get the higher quality leads to bigger ticket leads because they have all bit of like a preferential treatment in this conversation. Jordan breaks down why buying leads can feel safe until it isn't. He explains what diversification actually looks like and how building your own brand compounds so you're not starting from zero every time the market shifts. As of today, literally today open. I put out the first image of what an ad is going to look like on Chocolate Beauty. And so we actually have a visual now where we can actually see how we're going to look, how are they going to appear, how are we gonna be able to bid on these things and they're slowly rolling it out over the next few months. Today, he outlines how to stop being dependent on one channel. What's changing in legal marketing right now and how I search is about to reshape visibility completely. By the end of this conversation, you'll learn how to protect your pipeline, build leverage through your own marketing, and adapt before the next shift hits. I'm Julian Emery, and this is the scalable law blueprint. One of the reasons I wanted to have you on this podcast is I know there's a lot of digital marketers out there, but specifically you've worked with some folks that I know and trust who operate at some pretty significant scale. And you come very, very highly recommended from people that have worked with you and so I just want to call that out to anyone listening. Like what I've heard from multiple people is like, You got to talk to Jordan. Jordan knows this stuff, so I think that's awesome. I think the product background probably helps with that. I think more through like the full customer journey instead of just like did someone click on the app? Yeah. When you work at a big tech company, you know, it's not just coming up with an idea. There's so many details to execution from the concept to the legal to the marketing, the copywriting, localization. So when you have that background, I think it helps you just think these things through a little bit further than the average marketer I know. Like the landscape of marketing is changing. And we're talking specifically here about law firms and legal marketing, and I know there's some new regulations and laws around marketing to share more around some of these changes and how that impacts law firms specifically. Yeah, so we're recording this in January 2026. These new laws are already in effect as of January 1st. The major one that there's a lot of buzz around is called SB 37, which specifically impacts law firms in California. And what it's trying to do is bring more transparency to marketing. So consumers can make better decisions. So there are a set of rules for law firms, and there are a set of rules for companies that get leads and refer them to law firms. On the law firm side, there are things like you have to put the name of the managing partner on the ad. You have to specify where the office is. You have to specify, is this a AI? Is it an actual portrayal? Is this a real settlement? Is a not you know, there's a lot of regulations and you can actually be fined if you're putting out things that don't follow these rules. And if you get a complaint, you have to take on the ads pretty quickly and address these things. So the really clamping down on what you can and can't do, whereas, you know, for the past five years it was kind of the wild, wild west of advertising for marketing firms. On the referral business side, it seems like the lawyers have really clamped down there even harder. Referral businesses have to specifically mention that they are not a law firm and that they are a referral service. They also must be barred, just like attorneys. So there's a state bar where referral businesses have to go and get a certification, a state bar number, and they do need to present that number on their ads and on their marketing materials to be compliant with the law. What that actually means is that all these referral businesses are typically taking up a big chunk of the leads off Facebook and Instagram ads. They might start to see their conversion rates start to dip because they have to specifically say, we are not a law firm. We're going to be referring this out to someone else. And being a lot more transparent, the media historically have to be interesting. You talk about specifically data as liability there, I guess. How does this change the relationship that law firms have with the generators? I think typically a lot of law firms, especially the first starting out, will go to these referral businesses to buy leads as opposed to building their own brands. Because it's somewhat easier. Someone else is worrying about the marketing, someone else is worrying about qualifying leads and passing them over to them. So it makes sense why lawyers go there. But from our point of view and it's a little bit early to tell, but we do think that these kinds of disclosures and changes are going to make it a little bit more expensive and harder for referral businesses to collect this data and to collect these leads. So I think that probably drive up costs for lawyers that are trying to buy leads from these services. And I also think that we're going to continue to see more and more regulations come out. And as that happens, that might make it harder and harder for new referral businesses to come into the market and for the existing ones to really play at a large scale. I think it's going to push attorneys to do more of their own marketing, which I personally think is a good thing. But that's the kind of trend we expect to see. And is this right now just in California, or do you see similar laws in other states that have either already come out or are going to come out soon? We specifically work with mostly law firms in California. We do work with some law firms in other states. Typically what we see with any part of the law or any kind of regulation is when a major state like California makes an initiative, other states tend to adopt those too. So I would not be surprised if this becomes the standard across the country, even for states that don't have these laws yet, because that's typically what ends up happening. So it sounds like you're saying the onus is going to be increasing on the law firm to do their own marketing. That is counter to what most law firm owners tend to want to do. It can seem like there's just a lot of firms that just live off referrals and and if they're living off referrals and there's this world where, A, they might be forced to pick up their own marketing game or if other firms would pick up their marketing and like, I guess, how do they gain more leverage by becoming like chase generators and doing their own marketing? Like, how do you think about that dynamic? Yeah, I mean, first off, I am always a proponent of having more than one channel for any kind of business to generate business that could be working with these kinds of companies that refer business to you, that could be running ads on multiple channels. I always think that you should you risk your business, should have multiple channels generating things. But with these laws changing and with just a trend I've seen over the past couple of years, we have so many lawyers come to us and say, I decided to by overuse and I've been reliant on a couple of firms to sell me these. And now without them, I have no business. I don't have a brand. I'm really at the mercy of them. And the other factor that people don't really talk about is that there are so many new P.I. law firms and lemon law firms and employment law firms, and that's driven up the cost naturally, with more demand on the law side from these referral businesses to sell them leads. And another reality that people will like to talk about is that there are really big law firms that will spend millions of dollars with these referral businesses and they will get the higher quality leads, the bigger ticket leads, because they've all been offered little preferential treatment for how much they spent. So just in the past month, I've had multiple lawyers come to me and say I've been buying leads for years now. I know when to diversify. And what I would urge them on to do is to that on day one, buy leads, start your brand to all these different channels. On day one so you're not reliant on one channel. And the earlier you start, the more likely you are for your brand to have brand awareness for people to think of you to next time be seen out of you. Remember to reach out to you as opposed to a competitor. It's something that compounds over time. So the longer you delay, the longer it takes for you to get results. And if you are generating the leads yourself, you know, you can refer business to other law firms. So you don't just have to take all those leads and handle them yourself. You can refer them to other lawyers and get a percentage back. And you can really control your destiny. You can scale up your time, you could scale it back. And I think that there are so many great resources now to help lawyers, to really great advertising, boutique shops all around the country, great video production companies all around the country. I coming into play, there's really no reason not to do it at this point. Right. It's still a big shift, though, as a law firm, if you've been reliant on. I'm just thinking like a small law firm that gets 20 cases a month or something through referrals and lives comfortably off of that. How do you think about the stages of growth and going from, say, 0 to 100 cases a month, then 100 to 500 and then up to a thousand or a thousand if I think these are big step changes, I imagine is there sort of a way to think about getting to that next level at each of these stages? Yeah, I mean, there's so many different components when it comes to each of those buckets. In the beginning, you need to figure out what intake looks like. Is type manual or is that using a software like yours that helps automated? Koslow How many attorneys do you have? Can you handle that kind of caseload? So it's not so easy just to say, well, we're going to increase our ad spend, take on more cases and deal with it is really like a step by step building. But what we tend to see is that you can start your ads. If you can get to a certain scale, you can start to build out your team, kind of sit at that skill for a little bit, understand what are the issues, what are the places? I need some automation where look, this is a new work, kind of really make that how you meet and then once you're there, then again scaling up your ads to the next level and doing the same thing that each of these buckets. The other thing I would mention is people think that sometimes if they have the budget, it could spend the budget effectively on that and on Google and all these channels. And that's not always the case from an advertising perspective. It's very different to spend $10,000 a month compared to $100,000 a month or 300,000 last month. The same ads, the same techniques will not always scale. You need more ad testing. You need more landing pages, because just because something works for a certain demo that you found doesn't mean it will convert for the next demo that you have to break into to maybe you can expand into different languages like Spanish and English ads. Chinese are because there's huge populations that speak all these different languages. And California. So I think there are a lot just ticks and operations pieces that need to be done. And then there is marketing work that needs to be done to go from each of these levels to the next level. And it takes time, effort, precision and strategy. It's not just something that you kind of do overnight. What are the biggest I'm curious like in people trying to go to that next stage, like what are the biggest barriers that hold them back from getting to the next stage? Like the reasons for failure if they're trying to go from, I don't know, 100 to 400 cases or something off the top of my head, I think there's two things. One is I think business owners sometimes don't allocate enough time to content creation. And at the end of the day, advertising, especially on amateur, has changed a lot. And Google has changed a lot over the past five years. Five years ago, advertising was all about targeting now basically 90% about creative. And so if you don't have enough creative and you don't have the right kind of creative, it'll be very difficult for them to scale. If they say, hey, if you want to scale your iPhone from 20 grand a month to 50 Belmont, how about you take ten grand from that 50 year budget and go do another video shoot that gives you a ton of other assets so we can scale effectively, as opposed to just scaling the ad budget and hoping that creative is going to work at that next level. So there is this mindset sometimes that people don't want to invest in the creative, they just want to invest in the ad spend. And we at this point almost turn down people who are not willing to invest in video shoots and photoshoots and getting the right kinds of assets because we know that we might not be as successful. The second thing I would say is that finding ways to scale the intake process is very important. Sometimes it might take 20 or 30 touchpoints with someone to get to a signed retainer, and if you don't have a process that scales with you and you're just getting more leads and now you're touch points go from ten, 15, 22, three, five, seven, that means that you're not hitting those people enough times and your conversion rate from lead to retainer is going to go down and then your economics will not work the same way. And so it's very, very important to have a plan in place that allows you to still at the same level of execution as you're scaling up the number of leads you got. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. We see this a lot on the intake side. It's funny, I talked to a lot of operators at firms and the funny thing is a lot of them talk about their conversion rate off of wanted cases. And when you peel back the layer a little bit, you're like, how many did even make it to wanted because you're not following up enough for you to pick up the phone to that time. That's like your overall conversion rate could jump by 40% if you had a higher wanted rate. So but we get that up definitely, which I think is exactly what you're saying. So we talk about intake. I'm always just curious. We've seen how much intake can scale based on what we do in our product. And the firms are working with one just kind of general thought that I've had is if the cost of intake comes down, I mean, it has come down, but like as the cost of intake nears zero and it's fractions of what it normally is to do it really well, why not market to more case types? Like if you're a PR firm, why not also do lemon law and also do employment law and do multiple types of PR like where is is. I know that you are sort of specialization on the actual execution of the casework and sort of knowledge of that. But assuming you can solve some of the downstream things, does it make sense to expand the the net of of leads you're going after? Or is there is that a lot harder than I think it ought to be? Yeah. I think I will say this with admitting that I have never run my own law firm. And I think that there's a lot of new onset probably don't have. But I think that there's a two pronged strategy I'm seeing from a lot of lawyers right now. One is that they want to steal into more areas of law under the current, let's call it section of law to be working. So just as an example, if you're doing personal injury, you go, great, we're going after car accident cases. We're going after slip and fall. What's adequate cases as another category under personal injury? Do we want to advertise for? So that's one trend that we see, which is just adding more kinds of cases under the same kind of law. And then the second trend we're seeing, especially in California, where there's uncertainty around what's going to happen with Uber's push around making it more difficult for personal injury attorneys to do what they need to do to represent people in California. I see a lot of personal injury firms looking at other areas of law to expand as well. We're seeing a big push into employment law right now in lemon law, but that's been a longer term deployment law where, first of all, injury from those, we actually want to open up an entire new practice area. We're going to hire attorneys that know what they're doing in applying law and we're going to serve in the region for our own firm in employment law. So I think you can scale up your operations in both ways. I think it's obviously a little bit more challenging when you're jumping into a new area of law because you either need to go learn how to practice in that area or hire an attorney that knows how to. And so there's a little bit more friction, whereas adding dog bites to personal injury seems like a little bit less friction from what I've learned from some attorneys. But both of those things are occurring and I think will rapidly increase with the cost of intake and the cost of processing going down. Because if you have an attorney that was one of our P.I. in applying the law and your cost to intake is zero, they'll go after all those kinds of cases, take the highest value cases, refer out the other cases that have value. But they don't want to work on and then keep scaling up the firm from there. If you're incorporating more and more technology for intake all the way to settlement, it's like, Yeah, I'm not going to. After more markets, you talked about making sure intake is right when you're coming in, but one feedback I've heard from all kinds of law firms is like, Oh, we increased our marketing spend and we got a whole bunch of crappy leads. So we're just going to go back to buying referrals like we talked about before. What are your thoughts on this with these firms that are just like, Oh, marketing, we just get nothing, we're crappy leads just to start off the the branches, right? You works with a good marketing firm or you work with the bad architecture and so sometimes you work for the firm, but doesn't really know the law aspects, the legal landscape, and they just can't deliver for your kind of company. And that's a scenario even when you work with a good firm. Again, there's so many different layers. Did you have the right intake team that can actually handle cold leads as opposed to super high quality leads that you're getting from someone else that's putting them? Does your website or landing page look like you can convert because they have the best practices for zero? Is your content good? Again, 90% of this in advertising is content. And then on top of that, you have great content. But was it I did it the right way. Do you have hooks to grab people's attention in the first 2 seconds? Are you retargeting people? What are you actually doing to convert these people from ad to landing page? And the last piece, which I always tell every attorney before they think about switching us, is, did you spend enough and did you spend enough time to make a decision? Because all business owners are impatient. I'm impatient, right? I want results right away. But if you're not willing to at least give yourself three months of a testing period, especially if you're a brand new, let's call it online brand, but you not really how to brand online. Give it three months for meta and Google to collect data. Do you give Madden Google feedback? Did you see these are good leads and these are validation. These are retained and these are for most people don't know this you can actually do offline conversion events where you tell people what happened to those leads and they actually built that technology for law firms. They built it because they know that in e-commerce, a produce happens in a day, but a retainer for take 30 days to sign. So they actually built this technology and a lot of people don't use them. And so did you spend enough money to get enough leads to make a decision? Do you have the right expectations and you given enough time and just to speak like super high level in terms of like numbers, retainer might cost a few thousand dollars to achieve often from better. So if your budget is only 2500 bucks a month and you're running ads for personal injury, California, you're not putting yourself or the firm in a position to succeed. You need to give them more budget. You need to give them more time. Whereas maybe you're in a different area of law like employment law, where the cost per retainer is less. And so you could make something work with a few thousand dollars. So my advice is work with someone you trust, make sure you're getting data, make sure that you have visibility, make sure that they're setting up everything in your accounts, not their accounts. Make sure the content looks great, make sure you have enough budget and time and then evaluate it. But if you don't have those guardrails or parameters, then evaluating ten leads, 50 leads, 100 leads to come in is almost pointless. And your solution is actually to try to get a ton of sense. I feel like the impatience and desire for a coin operated sales process is probably the driver of a lot of that. You talk a lot about content and how the creative matters a lot. Obviously with AI tools for creating content and editing creative whatever. And also just in terms of how consumers search now, right? Like the search results and Google and chat up quad, I guess just in your mind at a high level, what has changed because of AI and marketing? What has stayed the same? How should people think about the evolving landscape and how they should be thinking about it from a marketing perspective? I think this is the most exciting time in advertising in the past ten years that I've seen. There is so much to unpack here. There's so many exciting new things happening. Each of them have different implications on the future in advertising. The first, like you mentioned, is content creation. With A.I., we are leveraging A.I. to make ads left and right now. And historically, we've had some firms or some businesses come to us that don't have a lot of great content, and they didn't want to invest a lot of money due to a shoot, or they couldn't invest long wanting to shoot with their small business. A lot of times we've had to turn down these businesses or tell them, come back to us after you have a shoot done. Now we can offer a variety of solutions. We could say, you could do a photo shoot this guy in a video, shoot this guy, or we could use A.I. to make these kinds of ads for you and for a lot of businesses, that's brought down the cost to build the creative, and that's helped us make our clients more successful. We're doing videos within images. We're doing things that look supernatural but actually natural. Again, I will say specifically in the legal marketing landscape, you do have to disclose now that like something is not real and you know, people are still learning how to interpret the law, but we are going ahead and seeing this generated and I think that that's okay in certain areas if you're doing a fake testimonial that saying A.I. is going to kill the whole purpose of the ad. But if you're doing something that is like so supernatural and crazy and grass, people's attention and there's obviously A.I., but is is tasteful and effective, then that's different. And people don't really look at that negatively. So we're using A.I. for concentration. We're also using A.I. to move faster. And a lot of things we can design things faster. We can build things faster. The cost for development, the cost or design is going down as we can generate things faster and get things done the right way faster. And then the last piece, which I am super excited about, is people searching in A.I. platforms. Gemini Chhatrapati Card. These tools are getting billions of searches. A year is on a month at this point. And what we've seen is we've already started seeing traffic come to the attorneys you work with through these platforms. And there is going to be two different areas to the search beast, just like the reason organic Google and paid Google, there's going to be organic A.I. searches and paid A.I. searches. On the organic side, we have a lot of new tactics we're using to help companies rank at the top of the AI searches. For example, top one, the law firm California, top real estate broker, Los Angeles. These are phrases that people are searching. We are finding ways to make sure the AI looks at our websites and our content and our profiles and rank us high for our clients. But as of today, literally today, opening day, I put out the first image of what an ad is going to look like on Traction Beauty. And so we actually have a visual now where we can actually see how we're going to look, how are they going to appear, how are we gonna be able to bid on these things? And they're slowly rolling it out over the next few months. But we are on the wait list to be one of the first partners to be able to launch ads there. And we are very, very bullish on people going to clicking on ads just like they have clicked on Google ads over the past decade. So again, I think this is the most interesting time to be in advertising. I think the whole industry is being shaken up in a really nice way and I think you need to work with plus people to be able to execute. The barrier to entry on this creative has gone up in that you have to disclose everything you're doing. The barrier of entry to make high quality content on A.I. is less, but in general is higher, right? Because there's so many marketing ads for lawyers, your content has to stand out. And so you need to do better work from an advertising perspective. And then searches are going from Google to this API and dealing with that is a whole other set of consequences. So we're very excited about it. We're attacking it. We're learning every single day. And I think that a lot of young attorneys that jump on this trend are going to outpace the attorneys that are too slow to change and too slow to adopt these things. And they're going to take business away from US attorneys. How do you evaluate marketers then? If I'm sitting here running a law firm and I'm not working with with you, Jordan, and one you know, you should contact Jordan contact information in the show notes. But but how do they generally think about choosing a marketing firm like this? It just seems like there's a lot of bias out there. And I'm curious, like, how do you evaluate the right firm? I guess you can sort of test things and see if they work, but given they have to make a certain investment and wait a certain amount of time, how do you think about, you know, a checklist of things to look for maybe when making a decision? I think there's a few things that I would do if I was a decision maker trying to hire a firm. The first thing is you have to understand the landscape. There are three kinds of marketing solutions out there. There are the big firms, without naming names, you know, those are firms that have hundreds of employees that are very well-known. There are boutique firms. I would qualify us as a boutique firm. Right. With less than a hundred employees. And then there are freelancers. Typically, what I tell people is the big firms tend to not give the best customer support and service unless you're one of their biggest accounts that's looking for support. I wouldn't really go up to those larger companies because you're not going to get the service and experience you need. I think freelancers are great, but they tend to tap out and they tend to not have resources for everything you need to do. And so by the time you pay all those different retainers, you end up paying just as much as you would with an agency. And I think there are the boutique agencies, and I think boutique agencies tend to have less customers. They tend to work on quality and they tend to really want to have a long lasting relationship with their clients. And so I would start off my search looking up boutique agencies. If I was an attorney looking to hire a digital marketing firm, the next thing I would do is I would understand, do they have experience in this category, specifically with law firms? There's new laws, regulations, the cost per retainer and lead in every single part of law is different. And if someone can't really effectively give you an estimate of on average, what's the cost for retainer for a P.I. versus employment versus the lemon law, they might not have enough experience to make you successful. And so I would really just urge you to talk to people, ask them specific numbers and see what they come back with and make sure they actually have the experience you're looking for. And then the last thing I would tell you is you want to talk to some of their current customers, because if you call one of their law firms and he says, Yeah, I'm consistently getting leads and I know it's coming from Meadow. And he set up this tracking with Call Real and I can actually see the exact phone numbers are coming from better and I could tell he's been the high quality cases. That means that you have some verification, some social proof that you can make a decision off of if they're scared to have you talk to their clients. I don't necessarily think that's a good indicator or a good sign. And those are like the main things I would look for. If you have other concerns, I would look at what is the quality of the creative look like, what is the quality of the landing pages look like? And you have to make sure that you're actually controlling that. Sometimes agencies don't control that. Go to the Facebook guys library, type in any law firms, name that they work with and see as they're working on. Click on the landing pages and see what the expense looks like and see if you can get up to the part of the work that you're expecting for your firm. So that's where I would start. I'm always happy to give people advice, even if they don't work with our firm. So if you ever are evaluating another agency or need help or want to just get a gut check, you can always reach out to me and I'm happy to. To what time to help you guys make the right decision. That's super helpful. What are your thoughts real quick, too, on the boutique agencies? We're talking digital marketing as well. I imagine those boutique agencies will kind of focus on and prep big agencies to digital marketing and all channels there versus, you know, billboards or radio ads or what have you, I guess. How do you think about channels selection in your advertising within digital and beyond digital? Is there like an easy place to start or do you layer those all together? How do you think with that? Really great question. It's so customized for the area of law and the kind of business and so many factors. But just as a quick summary, I would say on the digital side, if you already have some brand awareness or if you already have some out of home going or other things, then Google could be very impactful for you because people are already looking for you. You want to make sure you show up, capture that demand, and it could be very effective if your law firm has a ton of five star reviews, like hundreds of five star reviews. Google could be a really great place for you to double down and advertise by personal injury, phone calls and much more expensive than employment law employment law calls from Google. And so you would probably want to see if you have the budget to compete on that channel for that kind of area of law. Whereas on the media side, media is a little bit different in that you're not targeting people by a search, you are prospecting, you're convincing someone to reach out to you. And so you don't really have the same kind of issue where it's like $300 per phone call on media for pie because you could serve those ads to anyone in any job. And as long as you're engaging and you've reached the right person, they can reach out and the cost per these could be lower. But on the other side, you tend to see a lot less quality, a lot more forensics in the system to find those real cases are high value. So it really depends on, you know, what your strengths and weaknesses are if you have really great content and that is the way to go, if you don't really have good content and have a way of getting it, Google might be the path to go in terms of digital versus out of home. I would say five years ago I would advise people just to focus on digital because I think you can compete. And it was early enough where CPMs were lower, the cost advertisers lower, and you could really build a business just off the back of digital. But we're in a landscape that's so competitive, especially in California, for lemon. What kind of API that digital will get you places? But you need to build the brand to really get to the next level. Although we don't do out at home, we have partners that do it and we urge clients once they get to a certain level, a certain revenue threshold, hey, it's time to think about a new channel to look. Why don't we unlock billboards in this market? Why don't we try local TV in this market to drive more brand awareness so our ads are more effective on the digital side. So the way we think about it is out-of-home builds awareness so that when they see your ad on digital, it's not the first time they've heard about you. And you're starting to build a web around your target demo so that when, God forbid anything happens, they know they can reach out to you and your conversion rates will go up your click through rates will go up, everything will go up because you have other supporting marketing channels. So although boutiques tend to not have all those capabilities, most boutiques can refer you to another business that can help with something. So we have agencies that help us with a lot of services that we don't provide. It is our goal to continue to grow. Like if you looked at us year one versus now year six, we've grown our capabilities and we're even looking now to rent out a studio where we can do content production in our style. And I think you'll see a trend with every boutique to get more and more services, but there's always a contact they have. I can help you with another channel that they can help you with, and those typically are better recommendations than the ones that you just fine duplicate yourself. So I still think it's better to work with a boutique than a bigger firm, even though they can do less for you. That makes sense. And even the sequencing, just the complimentary nature of those channels makes a lot of sense as well. And you think about how awareness supports the digital side. It's a bit of air support when you're when you're then going online. Yeah, we've taken businesses from starting them better to then doing Google ads, doing SEO, then large amounts of YouTube ads. Now we've actually were about to announce this on our looked in in a couple of weeks, but we actually launched the first ever app while format on Snapchat about a month ago and we're going to do that for more firms to talk to unfortunately doesn't let law firm as yet but when that gets unblocked, we'll be there. And we've done billboards with these attorneys and now, you know some of these firms have gone bigger. Read on looking at some kind of sponsorship opportunities at sports teams or arenas or other fuels so that we can, again, build up brand awareness or ads to better because people are familiar with us when they see us. So I think there's definitely a progression of channels that you can layer on to build up top of funnel brand awareness. But before you get there, just do something amazing on the content of your matter ads because that can give a lot of brand awareness too. If you do something super funny, super catchy of Mexico, memorable, and you just keep running versions of that ad and building on that storyline, a lot of people in your market will start to recognize you, even if they don't need you today. And we'll think about you next time we need you. That makes a lot of sense. Jordan, this is wonderful. I could talk to you for a long time about this stuff, but let's wrap it there. And if anyone that wants to reach out to you or email about your work, contact you, chat with you. What's the best way to get in touch with you? You can follow me on Twitter my handle Jordan Banner You can go to my LinkedIn. Jordan Banafsheh You can always DM the Ice Pop HQ Instagram handle and someone from my team will respond. My company in Jordan, I popped up cool. I popped Doxy Oh, I'm sure we could add that. And the notes by Phil for you reach out. I'm always happy to take a phone call, give advice, share, experience, some examples. Share tools such as using this resource to make your marketing better. That's awesome. That all I'll be linked to in the show notes and we can wrap there. Thanks a lot, Jordan. Awesome. Thanks for having me. Thanks for checking out the Scalable Law Blueprint. If today's conversation helps you think differently about how your law firm runs, share this episode with a colleague and don't forget to follow the show so you never miss what's next. To see how automation can transform your intake and operations, visit super panel, Talk IO and discover how leading plaintiff firms scale with confidence. I'm Julian Emery and I'll see you in the next episode.